SF07
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Post by SF07 on Jul 1, 2019 20:55:46 GMT 1
Registrations from Diamond Bus for First's Bolton depot services have appeared today with a registration date of 11 August (just under six weeks time). Registrations include the 162/163 services, which was rumoured to be transferred to Go North West.
PC0004417/285 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Bolton, Interchange to INTU Trafford centre. via Swinton, Eccles Service number: 2 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/286 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Manchester, Shudehill Interchange. to Bolton, Interchange. via Salford shopping centre, Pendlebury, Farnworth. Service number: 8 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/287 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Manchester Picadilly to Bolton Interchange via Salford Shopping Centre, Swinton, Little Hulton, Royal Bolton Hospital Service number: 36 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/288 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Manchester, Picadilly to Bolton, Interchange via Salford Shopping centre, Swinton, Walkden, Farnworth Service number: 37 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/289 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: INTU Trafford Centre to Farnworth bus station via Eccles, Walkden Service number: 68 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/290 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: 162 - Norden way/163 - Bury Interchange to Manchester, Picadilly via Langley, Middleton Service number: 162 (163) Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/291 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Rochdale Interchange to Bolton Interchange via Heywood, Bury, Breightmet Service number: 471 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/292 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Bury Interchange to Bury Interchange via Walmersley, Holcolmbe Brook Service number: 472 (474) Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/293 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Johnson fold to Farnworth bus station via Brownlow fold, Bolton, Royal Bolton Hospital. Service number: 501 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/294 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Bolton Interchange to Bolton Interchange via Bradshaw Brow Service number: 507 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/295 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Bury Interchange to Bolton Interchange via Walshaw, Withins, Breightmet, Leverhulme Park. Service number: 511 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/296 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Bury Interchange to Bolton Interchange via Radcliffe, Little lever Service number: 524 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/297 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Bolton Interchange to Bolton Interchange via Withins Service number: 561 (562) Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/298 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Bolton Interchange to Leigh Bus station via Atherton Service number: 582 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0004417/299 Registered DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED Route: Manchester Picadilly to Farnworth bus station via swinton, Walkden, Little Hulton, New Bury Service number: x39 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
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Post by gooderson1 on Jul 1, 2019 22:15:13 GMT 1
It was the X63 that transferred to Go Ahead North West. It is shown on the TFGM pdf timetable as part of the 162/163/X63. 162/3 operated by First Manchester X63 operated by Go Ahead. There is a leaflet issued by Go Ahead North West showing all the routes they operate including a map along with the range of tickets on offer. The 162/163 are not shown on that leaflet.
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SF07
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Post by SF07 on Jul 5, 2019 9:41:41 GMT 1
Cancellations for First Manchester's Bolton depot services have appeared. The 2 and 68 haven't been fully cancelled by First, presumably running evening journeys from Rusholme depot.
PC0003680/924 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Leigh Bus Station to Manchester Picadilly via Tyldsley, Walkden Service number: X39 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/9 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Bolton Interchange to Leigh Bus Station via Atherton Town Centre Service number: 582 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/13 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: BOLTON to WITHINS ESTATE Service number: 561 (562) Service type: Limited Stop Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/35 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Bury Interchange to Bolton Interchange via Radcliffe Bus Station Service number: 524 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/276 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Bury Interchange to Bolton Interchange via Ainsworth Service number: 510 (511) Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/152 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Bolton Interchange to Bolton Interchange via Harwood Service number: 507 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/4 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Farnworth to Chorley Old Road/ Moss Bank Way via Bolton Black Horse St Service number: 501 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/21 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: BURY to RAMSBOTTOM via Holcombe Brook Service number: 472 (474) Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/36 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Rochdale Bus Station to Bolton Moor Lane Bus Station via Heywood Service number: 471 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/20 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Manchester Piccadilly to Bury Interchange via Middleton Bus Station Service number: 163 (162) Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/429 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Bolton Interchange to Manchester Piccadilly via Walkden Centre Service number: 37 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/146 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Manchester Piccadilly to Bolton Interchange Service number: 36 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/168 Cancelled FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Manchester, Shuehill Interchange to Bolton Interchange via Pendlebury Service number: 8 (168) Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019
PC0003680/22 Registered FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Bolton Interchange to Stockport Bus Station via Monton Green Service number: 22 (2) Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019 Variation Accepted
PC0003680/39 Registered FIRST MANCHESTER LTD Route: Manchester, Trafford Centre to Bolton, Moor Lane Bus Station via Monton Green, Farnworth Service number: 68 () Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 11 Aug 2019 Variation Accepted
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Post by jabbott1987 on Jul 5, 2019 19:32:42 GMT 1
they'll be run from Oldham as Rusholme depot closed with services transfering to either Queens Rd (formerly owned) and Oldham.
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ratty
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Post by ratty on Jul 5, 2019 23:42:25 GMT 1
they'll be run from Oldham as Rusholme depot closed with services transfering to either Queens Rd (formerly owned) and Oldham. According to the First Bus Enthusiasts FB site, Rusholme is reopening, and will operate the Vantage routes, some tendered routes, and the 2 and the 68. If true, it would appear First jumped the gun in closing Rusholme.
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Post by michael1971 on Jul 6, 2019 9:06:25 GMT 1
they'll be run from Oldham as Rusholme depot closed with services transfering to either Queens Rd (formerly owned) and Oldham. According to the First Bus Enthusiasts FB site, Rusholme is reopening, and will operate the Vantage routes, some tendered routes, and the 2 and the 68. If true, it would appear First jumped the gun in closing Rusholme. plus the training fleet will move with them
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SF07
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Post by SF07 on Jul 30, 2019 18:29:05 GMT 1
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SF07
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Posts: 3,216
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Post by SF07 on Jul 31, 2019 19:54:15 GMT 1
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Post by passenger859 on Aug 11, 2019 13:17:09 GMT 1
Seen a few ex Bolton First vehicles in Manchester City Centre today with large Diamond vinyls covering the old First ones.
Also saw a Streetdeck style bus on Oldham Street in full blue Diamond livery. 40701 - SK19 EYW.
Any news on Oldham? Out of the three they’re the one I use most, mainly on 83, 180 and 184.
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Post by sharksmith on Aug 11, 2019 15:13:42 GMT 1
It's getting much easier for enthusiasts to track down particular buses in Greater Manchester these days with both Go North West's full fleet and Rotala Diamond Bus North West's on loan First vehicles joining their existing buses as showing up on bustimes.org on launch day in Bolton!
What these takeovers highlight is that the release of real time tracking data is not a technological problem, it seems to be more that First & Stagecoach in particular are dragging their heels in providing/sharing this information for their own customers benefit, particularly in the North. If Rotala can provide this data on Sunday 11th of August, why could First Manchester not have provided it on Saturday 10th of August and why can they not release this data in Oldham, West Yorkshire or South Yorkshire. Clearly Arriva have gone their own way but at least provide similar data on their own App. There are now thankfully many First regions and isolated Stagecoach regions allowing data to be used but the coverage is very patchy. Don't bother looking around the Scottish regions, home to both First and Stagecoach as apart from a few Stagecoach buses in the Highlands it's Lothian or National Express in Dundee or not much at all, look at Glasgow in particular, the map is bare apart from Whitelaws buses on this Sunday afternoon!
Thank goodness for Go Ahead, Transdev, Wellglade and Rotala, among a number of other forward thinking independents for embracing modern technology, it just shows that we are in a period of transition to more customer focused bus managers showing up the former big players of Stagecoach, First and Arriva to be the dinosaurs they are and who could very could very soon become extinct.
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SF07
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Post by SF07 on Aug 11, 2019 18:06:54 GMT 1
Seen a few ex Bolton First vehicles in Manchester City Centre today with large Diamond vinyls covering the old First ones. Also saw a Streetdeck style bus on Oldham Street in full blue Diamond livery. 40701 - SK19 EYW. Any news on Oldham? Out of the three they’re the one I use most, mainly on 83, 180 and 184. Oldham depot seem to be scaling back on its routes from next month with cancellations for the 24, 38/39, 331, 333, 389, 393 and 454/457 services. Tameside services partly replaced by new services 336/337 and 389 from Stagecoach, while the 454/457 will be partly replaced by First West Yorkshire's new 588 service. This could indicate that First sells remaining routes off to other operators rather than selling the whole depot/routes to one company. From next month, First will be running services 6, 58, 59, 81/81A, 83, 180/184, 181/182, 348, 350, 409, 425 and X84 from Oldham depot plus Vantage and evening services 2 and 68 from new Bolton depot. The 2, 58 and 68 are TfGM contracted services, along with Vantage. There will be speculation and theories as to who could take over all/some of the services. Transdev could look to build the Rosso brand more in Greater Manchester, while it could be a good way for Go North West to grow after their takeover of the Queens Road depot in June. Selling off services on a route-by-route basis may be more appealing to Stagecoach, who probably wouldn't be able to takeover the full depot. 184 could be an interesting route, seeing as it goes to/from Huddersfield and runs a combined 10-minute service with the First Huddersfield 181/183/185 services in West Yorkshire and a combined 10-minute frequency with the 180 in Oldham.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Aug 12, 2019 8:46:00 GMT 1
It's getting much easier for enthusiasts to track down particular buses in Greater Manchester these days with both Go North West's full fleet and Rotala Diamond Bus North West's on loan First vehicles joining their existing buses as showing up on bustimes.org on launch day in Bolton! What these takeovers highlight is that the release of real time tracking data is not a technological problem, it seems to be more that First & Stagecoach in particular are dragging their heels in providing/sharing this information for their own customers benefit, particularly in the North. If Rotala can provide this data on Sunday 11th of August, why could First Manchester not have provided it on Saturday 10th of August and why can they not release this data in Oldham, West Yorkshire or South Yorkshire. Clearly Arriva have gone their own way but at least provide similar data on their own App. There are now thankfully many First regions and isolated Stagecoach regions allowing data to be used but the coverage is very patchy. Don't bother looking around the Scottish regions, home to both First and Stagecoach as apart from a few Stagecoach buses in the Highlands it's Lothian or National Express in Dundee or not much at all, look at Glasgow in particular, the map is bare apart from Whitelaws buses on this Sunday afternoon! Thank goodness for Go Ahead, Transdev, Wellglade and Rotala, among a number of other forward thinking independents for embracing modern technology, it just shows that we are in a period of transition to more customer focused bus managers showing up the former big players of Stagecoach, First and Arriva to be the dinosaurs they are and who could very could very soon become extinct. Wherever BusTimes are getting their data from it is little to do with the operator co-operation, my employers buses are shown and we don't provide data to them (at least not knowingly) we only provide data to certain Local Authority systems for roadside displays & our own website/app developers for provision via our site. I suspect that bustimes is taking its data 3rd hand via some other generic provision that smaller operators use that the big operators don't tend to use directly as they can afford to provide their own (some form of data hosting for the Vehicle Tracking side probably) though may also be used by some Local Authorities so big groups appear where they feed through those schemes. This will also explain why sites like this do show erroneous or questionable data, duplicate vehicles or buses well off route, as it is running off a raw feed rather than the processed data that internal apps or official end systems use where data is cleaned and compared to schedules to remove these data issues. What I do know is that it costs a lot of money to provide additional direct feeds to outside parties from the Tracking Systems used by the operators (how much varies from supplier to supplier, some allow a certain number of feeds for the basic fee with extras chargeable but others charge for each additional feed, so it is unlikely that these would be official data feeds from the operators as the cost wouldn't justify the minimal gain of feeding a system that isn't really customer focussed (though clearly very useful for bus enthusiasts).
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Post by sharksmith on Aug 12, 2019 13:30:52 GMT 1
It's getting much easier for enthusiasts to track down particular buses in Greater Manchester these days with both Go North West's full fleet and Rotala Diamond Bus North West's on loan First vehicles joining their existing buses as showing up on bustimes.org on launch day in Bolton! What these takeovers highlight is that the release of real time tracking data is not a technological problem, it seems to be more that First & Stagecoach in particular are dragging their heels in providing/sharing this information for their own customers benefit, particularly in the North. If Rotala can provide this data on Sunday 11th of August, why could First Manchester not have provided it on Saturday 10th of August and why can they not release this data in Oldham, West Yorkshire or South Yorkshire. Clearly Arriva have gone their own way but at least provide similar data on their own App. There are now thankfully many First regions and isolated Stagecoach regions allowing data to be used but the coverage is very patchy. Don't bother looking around the Scottish regions, home to both First and Stagecoach as apart from a few Stagecoach buses in the Highlands it's Lothian or National Express in Dundee or not much at all, look at Glasgow in particular, the map is bare apart from Whitelaws buses on this Sunday afternoon! Thank goodness for Go Ahead, Transdev, Wellglade and Rotala, among a number of other forward thinking independents for embracing modern technology, it just shows that we are in a period of transition to more customer focused bus managers showing up the former big players of Stagecoach, First and Arriva to be the dinosaurs they are and who could very could very soon become extinct. Wherever BusTimes are getting their data from it is little to do with the operator co-operation, my employers buses are shown and we don't provide data to them (at least not knowingly) we only provide data to certain Local Authority systems for roadside displays & our own website/app developers for provision via our site. I suspect that bustimes is taking its data 3rd hand via some other generic provision that smaller operators use that the big operators don't tend to use directly as they can afford to provide their own (some form of data hosting for the Vehicle Tracking side probably) though may also be used by some Local Authorities so big groups appear where they feed through those schemes. This will also explain why sites like this do show erroneous or questionable data, duplicate vehicles or buses well off route, as it is running off a raw feed rather than the processed data that internal apps or official end systems use where data is cleaned and compared to schedules to remove these data issues. What I do know is that it costs a lot of money to provide additional direct feeds to outside parties from the Tracking Systems used by the operators (how much varies from supplier to supplier, some allow a certain number of feeds for the basic fee with extras chargeable but others charge for each additional feed, so it is unlikely that these would be official data feeds from the operators as the cost wouldn't justify the minimal gain of feeding a system that isn't really customer focussed (though clearly very useful for bus enthusiasts). All of which may be true, and I certainly bow to your much more comprehensive knowledge of how the bus industry works on the inside, but it still shows First and Stagecoach in a bad light. As far as I'm aware, putting enthusiasts aside, neither First nor Stagecoach provide any live tracking on their websites or apps for passengers, First do have live bus stop information and helpfully include other operators buses at that stop too. Manchester didn't even have live bus stop data in most area's the last time I visited. I agree that passengers don't need specific vehicle information but as a commuter as well as an enthusiast, a dot on a map is much more reassuring than no information at all. If information is available for Rotala services on day one then surely the facility could not have been that hard for First Manchester to have supplied to passengers previously. Particularly considering it is available in The Potteries, Leicester, Worcester, Cornwall, Bristol, Berkshire among others. Go Ahead can do it, Transdev can do it, Centrebus do it and even Arriva provide live tracking via their App. It's clearly not difficult from the technology side, it just appears that the giants are sleeping when it comes to customer service.
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Post by humberside on Aug 12, 2019 18:14:08 GMT 1
Oldham depot seem to be scaling back on its routes from next month with cancellations for the 24, 38/39, 331, 333, 389, 393 and 454/457 services. Tameside services partly replaced by new services 336/337 and 389 from Stagecoach, while the 454/457 will be partly replaced by First West Yorkshire's new 588 service. This could indicate that First sells remaining routes off to other operators rather than selling the whole depot/routes to one company. Personally, I'd disagree with that -The 588 is probably First wanting to retain their position on a 'corridor' they will still be serving from West Yorkshire. I wouldn't read anything into that as in the big picture it's an exception - the only other similar situation is with the 184 -The new Stagecoach services are - please correct me if this is wrong - First deregistering and Stagecoach deciding to cover the main gaps, not Stagecoach buying the routes. If anything this could be First getting rid of unprofitable routes to make the remaining Oldham operation more saleable -Who is going to buy individual routes with the threat of franchising? When they come with a depot I can understand, but buy a route/routes, lose the right to operate and all that is left for your money is the vehicles, assuming they are included - and going by the Bolton sale that is not guaranteed. If First did sell individual routes I doubt they would get much for them beyond the value of any vehicles included. Plus if anyone really wants any individual routes they could start a competing service, would First respond at the moment? If First can't sell what is left of Oldham as a whole, I suspect First could close down the depot, make staff redundant, deregister routes and either sell the vehicles separately or transfer to elsewhere within First.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Aug 12, 2019 18:32:56 GMT 1
All of which may be true, and I certainly bow to your much more comprehensive knowledge of how the bus industry works on the inside, but it still shows First and Stagecoach in a bad light. I’m not sure I buy that. We of course have real time tracking here in West Yorks, and none of that feeds into bustimes.org First appears in certain areas, Eastern Counties is on, as is Bristol. Various bits of Stagecoach is available in the midlands, Arriva is mostly missing.
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Post by leeds rider on Aug 12, 2019 21:57:47 GMT 1
All of which may be true, and I certainly bow to your much more comprehensive knowledge of how the bus industry works on the inside, but it still shows First and Stagecoach in a bad light. I’m not sure I buy that. We of course have real time tracking here in West Yorks, and none of that feeds into bustimes.org It does, however, feed into other places, such as smartphone apps - I've used UK Bus Checker in various places around the UK (including Leeds!), and it's seldom failed to be of use.
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Post by sharksmith on Aug 12, 2019 22:01:36 GMT 1
All of which may be true, and I certainly bow to your much more comprehensive knowledge of how the bus industry works on the inside, but it still shows First and Stagecoach in a bad light. I’m not sure I buy that. We of course have real time tracking here in West Yorks, and none of that feeds into bustimes.org First appears in certain areas, Eastern Counties is on, as is Bristol. Various bits of Stagecoach is available in the midlands, Arriva is mostly missing. I'm not talking about next bus times at bus stops which anyone catching a bus in Leeds City Centre knows is next to useless. The only West Yorkshire buses with live position, map tracking are Arriva on their own app, Transdev on their app & bustimes.org and Connexions which is on bustimes. If you can view First West Yorkshire live bus position data I don't know where? Arriva have had this for at least a couple of years with Transdev of course providing this from this year. I'll defend First on a lot and I have already acknowledged that their bus stop data on their app is superior to even Transdev. My whole point was that in the case of Bolton, First's buses instantly showed up on bustimes on Sunday so the ability to provide this data is clearly there. You would hope as an industry leader, although you probably can't call them that any longer, they would be amongst the first to provide it's customers with this technology. I don't mean specific vehicle details, but bus tracking on a map.
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Post by sharksmith on Aug 12, 2019 22:15:53 GMT 1
To illustrate what I'm trying to get at.
If I'm stood on Leeds/Bradford Road in Bramley waiting for a 508 to Halifax the First app or Metro may tell me my bus is due in 10 minutes. If however I could see that the bus is at Yorkshire TV on Kirkstall Road during the evening rush hour I know it's going to be much longer than that due to traffic.
If I'm waiting for the 60 to Keighley I can see this information and the progress of the vehicle, First's 35 or 508 I can't.
As already mentioned above the data is made public in First's Bristol, Midlands, South West areas. It also appears to have been available in Manchester but just hidden away. Why can't we have this in West Yorkshire, are we waiting for an update to the first app which may now never arrive?
Please don't think I'm First bashing here as Stagecoach are just as bad, if not worse.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Aug 13, 2019 18:14:33 GMT 1
As pointed out though, it’s not as straight forward as First as a group refusing to do something, and then Diamond doing something, as all the big groups have areas where they do track, and areas where they don’t.
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Post by FIYHANunDer on Aug 13, 2019 21:37:52 GMT 1
To illustrate what I'm trying to get at. If I'm stood on Leeds/Bradford Road in Bramley waiting for a 508 to Halifax the First app or Metro may tell me my bus is due in 10 minutes. If however I could see that the bus is at Yorkshire TV on Kirkstall Road during the evening rush hour I know it's going to be much longer than that due to traffic. If I'm waiting for the 60 to Keighley I can see this information and the progress of the vehicle, First's 35 or 508 I can't. As already mentioned above the data is made public in First's Bristol, Midlands, South West areas. It also appears to have been available in Manchester but just hidden away. Why can't we have this in West Yorkshire, are we waiting for an update to the first app which may now never arrive? Please don't think I'm First bashing here as Stagecoach are just as bad, if not worse. The recently updated First Bus App shows whether the bus is tracking in real time or not and is as accurate as you can probably get. I am not sure why you need to physically see the bus on a map. I know work is underway to bring live bus map tracking to the app but for me its just a few people who want it and is a waste of money and time. The app is based on live GPS provided by the ticket machines where as the RTI is a complicated algorithm based loosely on their own intermediate tt assumptions and previous performance.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Aug 14, 2019 8:50:07 GMT 1
To illustrate what I'm trying to get at. If I'm stood on Leeds/Bradford Road in Bramley waiting for a 508 to Halifax the First app or Metro may tell me my bus is due in 10 minutes. If however I could see that the bus is at Yorkshire TV on Kirkstall Road during the evening rush hour I know it's going to be much longer than that due to traffic. If I'm waiting for the 60 to Keighley I can see this information and the progress of the vehicle, First's 35 or 508 I can't. As already mentioned above the data is made public in First's Bristol, Midlands, South West areas. It also appears to have been available in Manchester but just hidden away. Why can't we have this in West Yorkshire, are we waiting for an update to the first app which may now never arrive? Please don't think I'm First bashing here as Stagecoach are just as bad, if not worse. The point is that you are basing your opinion of whether operators are doing something by a 3rd party unofficial site that I suspect none of the operators are feeding directly so no one is actively supporting (you listed Centrebus as one of the supplying operators, as my current employer I can tell you that no direct feed is provided) - the only operator listed on their source page is Reading Buses. BusTimes is taking their feeds from somewhere but it is unlikely in most cases to be the operators but from 3rd party feeds (like Local Authorities which would explain those areas where big operators appear, data hosting organisations that smaller operators use and the like). First do provide the data to their customers, just not in the format you want. There is a cost associated with providing this data outside of the internal monitoring system, the suppliers charge for extra feeds (some allow a number, 3 or 4, for a fixed fee but others charge for each individual feed and the costs are not cheap being in the thousands of pounds) so there will be a case of operators having to prioritise certain feeds over others, each LA RTI scheme will probably be a separate feed as will websites & apps so you can see how very quickly even the most generous suppliers bundled feeds can be used up quickly and the costs will rack up. The upcoming Bus Open Data legislation will probably improve things from your perspective as operators have to make some of their information available, though I suspect that live tracking data would still rely on the 3rd party to pay to set up a feed for themselves which would probably mean that Free providers like BusTimes would not be part of that. The discussion about what is the best way to display such data is a bit like which form of roadside timetable display should be used (some favour departure lists whilst others feel full timetables are better), everyone will have an opinion and they won't all agree. Having a display of where the bus is requires the customer to know precise routes, how timetables are constructed & likely traffic conditions, something many won't have, to allow them to interpret likely arrival times whereas a suggested time gives a clearer idea of when your bus will come. Simply showing where the buses are is, if anything, slightly easier as it doesn't require the system to match what the bus thinks it is to what the schedules say it should be to work out arrival times and the like (but does mean you risk showing buses not in service where the driver hasn't logged off their ticket machine and the like). There is also the question of how reliable an operators tracking is as to whether this sort of tracking is useful, if too high a proportion of vehicles don't track at any one time then showing the location of vehicles is less helpful as passengers will assume a bus isn't running when it is but just not showing leading customers to lose faith in the service. The tracking rate will be affected by both the system being used but also how that is implemented and how much reliance is placed on the driver to correctly set up the ticket machine on the bus to allow all the data to tally up, from experience I can tell you that the more reliance is placed on accurate entry by the drivers (rather than having automatic selection, easier for the driver but much more work in the back office to set up) the more likely incorrect data will be entered and tracking to fail.
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Post by chas on Aug 14, 2019 13:41:33 GMT 1
To illustrate what I'm trying to get at. If I'm stood on Leeds/Bradford Road in Bramley waiting for a 508 to Halifax the First app or Metro may tell me my bus is due in 10 minutes. If however I could see that the bus is at Yorkshire TV on Kirkstall Road during the evening rush hour I know it's going to be much longer than that due to traffic. If I'm waiting for the 60 to Keighley I can see this information and the progress of the vehicle, First's 35 or 508 I can't. As already mentioned above the data is made public in First's Bristol, Midlands, South West areas. It also appears to have been available in Manchester but just hidden away. Why can't we have this in West Yorkshire, are we waiting for an update to the first app which may now never arrive? Please don't think I'm First bashing here as Stagecoach are just as bad, if not worse. The point is that you are basing your opinion of whether operators are doing something by a 3rd party unofficial site that I suspect none of the operators are feeding directly so no one is actively supporting (you listed Centrebus as one of the supplying operators, as my current employer I can tell you that no direct feed is provided) - the only operator listed on their source page is Reading Buses. BusTimes is taking their feeds from somewhere but it is unlikely in most cases to be the operators but from 3rd party feeds (like Local Authorities which would explain those areas where big operators appear, data hosting organisations that smaller operators use and the like). First do provide the data to their customers, just not in the format you want. There is a cost associated with providing this data outside of the internal monitoring system, the suppliers charge for extra feeds (some allow a number, 3 or 4, for a fixed fee but others charge for each individual feed and the costs are not cheap being in the thousands of pounds) so there will be a case of operators having to prioritise certain feeds over others, each LA RTI scheme will probably be a separate feed as will websites & apps so you can see how very quickly even the most generous suppliers bundled feeds can be used up quickly and the costs will rack up. The upcoming Bus Open Data legislation will probably improve things from your perspective as operators have to make some of their information available, though I suspect that live tracking data would still rely on the 3rd party to pay to set up a feed for themselves which would probably mean that Free providers like BusTimes would not be part of that. The discussion about what is the best way to display such data is a bit like which form of roadside timetable display should be used (some favour departure lists whilst others feel full timetables are better), everyone will have an opinion and they won't all agree. Having a display of where the bus is requires the customer to know precise routes, how timetables are constructed & likely traffic conditions, something many won't have, to allow them to interpret likely arrival times whereas a suggested time gives a clearer idea of when your bus will come. Simply showing where the buses are is, if anything, slightly easier as it doesn't require the system to match what the bus thinks it is to what the schedules say it should be to work out arrival times and the like (but does mean you risk showing buses not in service where the driver hasn't logged off their ticket machine and the like). There is also the question of how reliable an operators tracking is as to whether this sort of tracking is useful, if too high a proportion of vehicles don't track at any one time then showing the location of vehicles is less helpful as passengers will assume a bus isn't running when it is but just not showing leading customers to lose faith in the service. The tracking rate will be affected by both the system being used but also how that is implemented and how much reliance is placed on the driver to correctly set up the ticket machine on the bus to allow all the data to tally up, from experience I can tell you that the more reliance is placed on accurate entry by the drivers (rather than having automatic selection, easier for the driver but much more work in the back office to set up) the more likely incorrect data will be entered and tracking to fail. Personally, I use the system to see where my village bus is, as it sometimes runs late. There is no phone access at the bus stop and no display, so I have to check before I leave home.
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Post by sharksmith on Aug 14, 2019 17:32:04 GMT 1
To illustrate what I'm trying to get at. If I'm stood on Leeds/Bradford Road in Bramley waiting for a 508 to Halifax the First app or Metro may tell me my bus is due in 10 minutes. If however I could see that the bus is at Yorkshire TV on Kirkstall Road during the evening rush hour I know it's going to be much longer than that due to traffic. If I'm waiting for the 60 to Keighley I can see this information and the progress of the vehicle, First's 35 or 508 I can't. As already mentioned above the data is made public in First's Bristol, Midlands, South West areas. It also appears to have been available in Manchester but just hidden away. Why can't we have this in West Yorkshire, are we waiting for an update to the first app which may now never arrive? Please don't think I'm First bashing here as Stagecoach are just as bad, if not worse. The point is that you are basing your opinion of whether operators are doing something by a 3rd party unofficial site that I suspect none of the operators are feeding directly so no one is actively supporting (you listed Centrebus as one of the supplying operators, as my current employer I can tell you that no direct feed is provided) - the only operator listed on their source page is Reading Buses. BusTimes is taking their feeds from somewhere but it is unlikely in most cases to be the operators but from 3rd party feeds (like Local Authorities which would explain those areas where big operators appear, data hosting organisations that smaller operators use and the like). First do provide the data to their customers, just not in the format you want. There is a cost associated with providing this data outside of the internal monitoring system, the suppliers charge for extra feeds (some allow a number, 3 or 4, for a fixed fee but others charge for each individual feed and the costs are not cheap being in the thousands of pounds) so there will be a case of operators having to prioritise certain feeds over others, each LA RTI scheme will probably be a separate feed as will websites & apps so you can see how very quickly even the most generous suppliers bundled feeds can be used up quickly and the costs will rack up. The upcoming Bus Open Data legislation will probably improve things from your perspective as operators have to make some of their information available, though I suspect that live tracking data would still rely on the 3rd party to pay to set up a feed for themselves which would probably mean that Free providers like BusTimes would not be part of that. The discussion about what is the best way to display such data is a bit like which form of roadside timetable display should be used (some favour departure lists whilst others feel full timetables are better), everyone will have an opinion and they won't all agree. Having a display of where the bus is requires the customer to know precise routes, how timetables are constructed & likely traffic conditions, something many won't have, to allow them to interpret likely arrival times whereas a suggested time gives a clearer idea of when your bus will come. Simply showing where the buses are is, if anything, slightly easier as it doesn't require the system to match what the bus thinks it is to what the schedules say it should be to work out arrival times and the like (but does mean you risk showing buses not in service where the driver hasn't logged off their ticket machine and the like). There is also the question of how reliable an operators tracking is as to whether this sort of tracking is useful, if too high a proportion of vehicles don't track at any one time then showing the location of vehicles is less helpful as passengers will assume a bus isn't running when it is but just not showing leading customers to lose faith in the service. The tracking rate will be affected by both the system being used but also how that is implemented and how much reliance is placed on the driver to correctly set up the ticket machine on the bus to allow all the data to tally up, from experience I can tell you that the more reliance is placed on accurate entry by the drivers (rather than having automatic selection, easier for the driver but much more work in the back office to set up) the more likely incorrect data will be entered and tracking to fail. I knew it was a mistake to quote Centrebus, I only did it as you work there but accept it was a bad example. I'm not basing my opinion solely on bustimes. Arriva supply live map data on their app, as do Go North East, as do Transdev and who in usual Transdev style did it with much fanfare as an improvement from bus stop data. I can't remember which car breakdown service is advertising live tracking of their vans at that moment but I'm sure there is one and even my local taxi company do it. I used to use live bus stop data quite happily but since the map tracking was introduced I haven't gone back, I just find it more reliable for me. Anyone who had ever stood at a bus stop in Leeds will recognise the following scenario. Next bus is due in 5 minutes...4...4...3...3...2...3...2...1...3...3...2...due. 12 minutes after the you were told the bus was due in 5 minutes it arrives. It doesn't matter if you use the bus stop screen, the First app, the Transdev app or the Metro website this thing happens. What I like is, on my Transdev App I can see where the bus is, I can tell which stand the bus is stood at, I can see if it's at the Arriva end of Leeds bus station it's not setting off yet. I may as well be able to see the driver going to the loo because that's what's probably happening. I know the bus won't be here in 2 minutes until I can see it on Eastgate. I know a lot of people won't do this but I can see if the incoming bus is going to be arriving in Leeds on time, I can see if the bus before will be arriving the 5 minutes late which will enable me to catch it. I know about an hour before I finish work which bus I'm likely to be able to get home. I agree it's all personal preference but I don't buy that it's too expensive if my local twenty car taxi firm can do it. I've a feeling the lack of data in Yorkshire,Manchester,Glasgow etc is probably due to arguments between bus companies and transport authorities regarding who should be responsible. Anyway sorry for clogging up the First Manchester thread with this, maybe I'll start another thread with a poll but we may have exhausted the subject.
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Post by chas on Aug 14, 2019 20:34:38 GMT 1
I knew it was a mistake to quote Centrebus, I only did it as you work there but accept it was a bad example. I'm not basing my opinion solely on bustimes. Arriva supply live map data on their app, as do Go North East, as do Transdev and who in usual Transdev style did it with much fanfare as an improvement from bus stop data. I can't remember which car breakdown service is advertising live tracking of their vans at that moment but I'm sure there is one and even my local taxi company do it. I used to use live bus stop data quite happily but since the map tracking was introduced I haven't gone back, I just find it more reliable for me. Anyone who had ever stood at a bus stop in Leeds will recognise the following scenario. Next bus is due in 5 minutes...4...4...3...3...2...3...2...1...3...3...2...due. 12 minutes after the you were told the bus was due in 5 minutes it arrives. It doesn't matter if you use the bus stop screen, the First app, the Transdev app or the Metro website this thing happens. What I like is, on my Transdev App I can see where the bus is, I can tell which stand the bus is stood at, I can see if it's at the Arriva end of Leeds bus station it's not setting off yet. I may as well be able to see the driver going to the loo because that's what's probably happening. I know the bus won't be here in 2 minutes until I can see it on Eastgate. I know a lot of people won't do this but I can see if the incoming bus is going to be arriving in Leeds on time, I can see if the bus before will be arriving the 5 minutes late which will enable me to catch it. I know about an hour before I finish work which bus I'm likely to be able to get home. I agree it's all personal preference but I don't buy that it's too expensive if my local twenty car taxi firm can do it. I've a feeling the lack of data in Yorkshire,Manchester,Glasgow etc is probably due to arguments between bus companies and transport authorities regarding who should be responsible. Anyway sorry for clogging up the First Manchester thread with this, maybe I'll start another thread with a poll but we may have exhausted the subject. A couple of bits of info on bustimes - Look at bustimes.org/vehicle-tracking-report for the routes covered. Some only update when a user looks at the relevant page. It comes from about 15 different feeds – mostly local authorities’ systems. This one is for Edinburgh - tfe-opendata.readme.io/docs/live-bus-positions .
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Post by michael1971 on Aug 20, 2019 19:48:56 GMT 1
Oldham fleet list up to date does not inculde yellow school buses or trainers
33656/63/68 to 72/74 to 76/78 to 84/86 to 90/92/94/98 33701/2/3/6/8/23/36/38/41/44 to 49/51/55 33842/43/45/49/52/54/56 36279/80 vantage spares 37383 / 37412/17/18/19/22/25 to 32/ 34/35/37/44/46 to 51/53 to 61/67 to 71 / 37545 to 61 47474 to 81 [ to move to York next month] 66872/73/80/92/94/916/917 69198/202 69527 to 31 / 37 to 39
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